when i observe pvp i just dont get it - Page 2 - Guild Wars Forums

Mesmer in Need · Apr 17, 2007, 11:21 PM // 23:21

If you try to take out a monk firs thing, it wont work most of the time. Warriors need adren to even start their chain of attacks first off. Usually at the beginningm of battle monks have no dp and full energy. Plus it takes a good amount of damage to take down a monk with its self healing, healing from another monk, and sometimes some support. Protection prayrs can negate alot of the damage also, making it hard to kill a monk unless under constant pressure. This pressure has to usually come from a large portion of your team, while the other team goes and murders your monks. The key to gvg is keeping pressure spread out evenly among the apposing party, and finnaly come in for the kill when the monks are weakend, with less energy and usually trying to heal a teammate.

AOD Enjoy Gravity · Apr 17, 2007, 11:26 PM // 23:26

The GW observer mode is a good tool to watch how others use their builds and stuff, but it's sometimes hard to tell what's going on. you can only see what one person is casting and there is no way to hear what is going on communication wise. I've listened to GvG battles on my guild's vent but had to wait to watch the match and try to remember what was said. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with observer mode the way it is, only that it doesn't give the whole picture at once. I've found that I like to follow one player to see what skills are being used, when and how they use them. In a long battle you can get a feel for both teams this way

sabutai · Apr 18, 2007, 11:48 AM // 11:48

yeah, i dont think i'm really learning anything about gw pvp in all these matches i'm observing...just seems like total chaos to me due to my ignorance of all the classes abilities, play styles and the general mechanics of the game

i am leery of playing an auto twenty toon, as it might just compound my confusion and lead to me developing bad habits

guess i'll just keep leveling my mesmer and warrior and wait till i get them some skills unlocked and learn to use them

anyways, thanks for the replies

Thomas.knbk · Apr 18, 2007, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedTheDead

I've watced more than one PvP video where someone ran a 55 build and could not be killed because they decided not to bring enchantment removal lol. And not just in RA.

Ok so he could not be killed. Did that win him the match? didn't think so.

TedTheDead · Apr 18, 2007, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Ok so he could not be killed. Did that win him the match? didn't think so.

Thats not the point? An example was given and for some reason blasted when, IMO, it was a good example of function on the discussion. The point is the power of survival skills. You can be made hard to kill, much more so than other games. Never did I state a 55 build should be used in PvP or that it has any ability to win a match or accomplish anything. Yes a 55 in PvP is worthless beyond making a match never end if the team isnt prepared with enchantment removal and interupts. BUT, it is in fact is an over-exagerated example of what the skill set in GW can do, which is why the OP is here posting.

Loot Junkie · Apr 18, 2007, 01:25 PM // 13:25

sabutai, I have a crazy little monk build which I use in random arenas that is near indestructible since hardly anybody brings interrupts or enchantment removals to that arena. So here's what happens: all the offense on the other team decides that they're gonna "get the monk", so they all wail away on me with everything they have and get absolutely nowhere since I am well protted up. Meanwhile, because they have all focused on me and not tried to shut down, hinder or damage anybody else, my team mates were basically free to do what they wanted which usually ends up as a victory for my team. The last thing you want to happen is for your team to expend all their efforts and energy on one target and get nowhere, this is usually FTL.

When you observe some high end pvp action and all you see is "everybody doing their own thing", they are not. What they are doing is seeing who is gonna crack first, its called pressure and is a big part of the GW pvp experience. Pressure forces you to learn to run your build efficiently and choose the best skills to occupy those meager 8 spaces on your skillbar. This is what makes GW one of the best games if not the best when it comes to pvp content.

Loot Junkie · Apr 18, 2007, 01:43 PM // 13:43

And as for Ted and his comments on 55 monking;

Don't you think Ted, that since sabutai is new, and that he is never going to see a 55 monk when he watches pvp matches on observe mode, that you should refrain from adding to his confusion by even mentioning this farming build on this thread? In order for him to get your point he would have to learn all about the 55 monk build, and considering he is new that is a little much dont you think? Thomas is an experienced pvper as well as a regular poster on these threads and is simply trying to keep this particular thread free from any extraneous ideas that clutter up the central idea on this thread.

sabutai · Apr 18, 2007, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedTheDead

Thats not the point? An example was given and for some reason blasted when, IMO, it was a good example of function on the discussion. The point is the power of survival skills. You can be made hard to kill, much more so than other games. Never did I state a 55 build should be used in PvP or that it has any ability to win a match or accomplish anything. Yes a 55 in PvP is worthless beyond making a match never end if the team isnt prepared with enchantment removal and interupts. BUT, it is in fact is an over-exagerated example of what the skill set in GW can do, which is why the OP is here posting.

i understood your meaning, in its essence

at this point i have no interest in builds, as that is a concern for later, i wont begrudge his help in stating simply "monk is hard to kill" however he presents it

any talk of builds, pvp or pve is just jibber jabber to me at this point, i am too ignorant of the game to get meaning from any of it

Hell Raiser · Apr 18, 2007, 02:06 PM // 14:06

The 55 monk example was perfect. He is not interested in builds anyway, nothing wrong with mentioning a build that uses protection to be able to dance around when the enemy is trained on him. It doesn't matter if it is PvP or PvE, it doesn't matter if you have 55hp or 500-600hp. What does matters is that, in GW, it is extremely easy to stop a train in it's tracks with a very small amount of effort.

sabutai · Apr 18, 2007, 02:14 PM // 14:14

sorry to drag this off topic, but what is this 55 build? and secondly should i have my monk heroes bar mostly laden with prot spells?

now that i know monks arent seconds away from being gangbanged in pvp i might try one...i was usually healers and shaman in daoc...i like that type of play

ok, back on topic and you guys arguing amongst yourselves

Kuldebar Valiturus · Apr 18, 2007, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Having played 3 years of DAoC and 2 years of WoW, I can understand the OP's line of questioning. I haven't done any serious PvPing in Guild Wars but I do run Observer mode quite frequently.

DAoC PvP was the king of trained assists, you would assign a main assist in your group and he would focus all the DPS down on the poor target, often Healers, at least at first, generally if you had a good MA your team would be good.

WoW had some of this approach but was often far less organized because trained attacks were usually unnecessary when all you needed to do was zerg first in order to win.

Sweep all that off the table for Guild Wars.

The skills are very refined and you can't kill or incapacitate whole groups of players at one time. The whole combat experience is balanced on a system of moves and counter moves causing a battle to see-saw back and forth, very much like Volley Ball when played well.

When I bring up PvP to friends who I played DAoC or WoW with, I always mention that "you don't really get bulldozed in Guild Wars."

What I mean, I explain, is that no matter how powerful the enemy, they generally can't mow through you as easily as in other games. Sure, you can get owned but you'll see it coming. In other games, you could literally be dead before you realized it. Or incapacitated by so many crowd control spells that you couldn't do anything while they killed you...

Guild Wars has a very refined combat system.

So, for me, I had to throw everything I ever thought I knew about PvP out the window, and I'm so shaken up about I still haven't PvPed <non-arena> in Guild Wars yet!

Hell Raiser · Apr 18, 2007, 02:46 PM // 14:46

The 55 builds is a monk that uses 5 superior runes (dropping health by 75 per rune) and a special quest reward -50hp offhand, which brings your health to 55. Then using Protective Spirit to reduce all damage to 5 (protective spirit makes it so you can't lose more than 10% of your total health from a single attack/spell <however this doesn't apply to life stealing>) among various other enchants (like Healing Breeze or Mystic Regeneration; with such low health, you regenerate health very fast with these). This build is used to solo farm in PvE, but is NOT recommended for PvP play.

{IN PVE}I usually bring no monk heroes when I play monk; 1 when I play another profession. If you do take 2 monk heroes, 1 prot+1 heal is still very good, however, 2 prots is very effective (If I take 2 monks, both are prot; 1 being ZB/GoH and the other using an elite that is good for the area {IN PVE}). So, no, I would not suggest having both monk heroes full prot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabutai

now that i know monks arent seconds away from being gangbanged in pvp i might try one...i was usually healers and shaman in daoc...i like that type of play

Depends on what type of PvP you will be playing. Just because people should not monk stomp doesn't mean they do not. I wouldn't suggest jumping into GvG/HA if you are new to monking (in GW).

Avarre · Apr 18, 2007, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

What I mean, I explain, is that no matter how powerful the enemy, they generally can't mow through you as easily as in other games. Sure, you can get owned but you'll see it coming. In other games, you could literally be dead before you realized it. Or incapacitated by so many crowd control spells that you couldn't do anything while they killed you...

Clearly you have not become acquainted with our friends Searing Flameway and Hexway, and their siblings, Burning Isle and Jade Isle. Unless you mean even more than that, in which case... ouch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabutai

sorry to drag this off topic, but what is this 55 build? and secondly should i have my monk heroes bar mostly laden with prot spells?

A farming build that uses the synergy between low health (55hp) and skills that cap damage based on a % of your health, to essentially take no damage while retaining the full power of health regen - making you indestructible. It is used in PvE.

Overall - protection is typically the larger focus. As far as PvP builds go, the most common are either heavier prot using one of the various protection elite skills and myriad nonelites, as well as small, efficient heals. Fairly often these are paired with a hybrid heal/prot which can use mass heals to remove the small bits of damage that get past reduction, or deal out large, quick heals that are not protted against, while having synergizing protections skills of their own. Occasionally, in larger arenas, dual prot monks are run with off-monk mass heals, but this has become less common.

As far as heroes are concerned, a decent protection bar is a good idea, with a small few heals (Gift of Health is incredibly efficient, and designed to go on a prot bar). I personally (as far as PvE) run a near-pure healer hero and a protection henchman, as heroes can not make good use of protection, in its use or its application. Damage mitigation is the job of three things - the monk to spot the target and shield it, the target itself to avoid as much damage by kiting, and the rest of the team by disrupting damage - and heroes tend to fail at this.

Another note to your earlier question of why the healers are not often the primary target is the concept of the role of the class. The monk's job is to reduce and eliminate as much of the effect of damage as possible. By running away from you, you deal no damage, and thus he completely achieves his objective at the cost of no energy. On the other hand, focusing on offensive casters forces them to kite around, where they can reduce damage to nothing but cannot do their job of providing offence. Also the fact that monks are often the furthest back makes them difficult to attack - for a few reasons. Extending deep into another teams puts your own monks at higher risk, generally places more pressure on your team, and also makes it quite clear who your targets are - who can freely run away. There are exceptions, but in general.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabutai

yeah, i dont think i'm really learning anything about gw pvp in all these matches i'm observing...just seems like total chaos to me due to my ignorance of all the classes abilities, play styles and the general mechanics of the game

Obs is a great resource, but you're right about that. You need a pretty decent grounding in the game to be able to understand fully what is going on, not just in how characters are played but how tactics are applied. You'll learn those eventually - the learning curve is quite steep for this game.

sabutai · Apr 18, 2007, 03:04 PM // 15:04

lol hellraiser, i'm not even in a guild, but i am too nervous to do any pvp, let alone gvg etc

being a good daoc player i could easily transition to WoW and pwn faces, as they were fairly similar...just less macro use

as kuldebar mentioned, this is so weirdly different to me, i am loathe to look horribly newbish and embarrass myself

Kuldebar Valiturus · Apr 18, 2007, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Clearly you have not become acquainted with our friends Searing Flameway and Hexway, and their siblings, Burning Isle and Jade Isle. Unless you mean even more than that, in which case... ouch.

Just think of eating dirt, and eating it fast and more frequently, but as a rule not an exception, lol. And it often came down to who got the first jump on the other. After all, Crowd Control is a very effective method of shooting fish in a barrel.

You can get one-shotted far more easily in other games than in Guild Wars.

Getting one-shotted gets old real fast, especially if the person doing the one-shotting is getting all or most of their "killing power" from high-end gear, gear that you may not have. If that's the case, it means you need to walk off the field of battle and try to get better gear and that could take some grind/raid time.

And this is where Guild Wars has clear distinction from WoW or DAoC.

sabutai · Apr 18, 2007, 03:34 PM // 15:34

lol yeah i usually played my shaman most recently in daoc, i died pretty much every single fight always within the first 10 to 15 seconds if we got jumped...even if we won the team armsman or whatever was fotm always managed to floor me...resulting in the tedious rebuffing of everyone

kiting, shearing, rooting, interrupting and death...the joy

also, but sorry to ask here...where can i learn new skills for my heroes? and i keep getting off hand items that add energy etc...but i can only find 2 handed weapos, thus making all these off hands i find useless///where is the 1 handed weapons for mages/priest etc?

Yichi · Apr 18, 2007, 06:25 PM // 18:25

any skills that you have unlocked on your account whether from buying them from skill trader, earning them from a quest, or unlocking them using balthasar faction will be available to your hero's.

Sisyphean · Apr 18, 2007, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Sabutai if you're nervous about PvPing, but still want to try it out, we should set up a time to do some Team Arenas - since we're both new to the game we can both look newbish.

A buddy of mine just started playing too, we used to play WoW together. There are a few people on my friend's list I've done some TA with who expressed interest in doing so again, as well, so I'm sure we could get together a low pressure team to try stuff out with - and I've won enough games in TA with groups that moved up from RA that I'm pretty confident we could do decent.

Send me a PM if you're interested some time - not necessarily now, but whenever.

lennymon · Apr 18, 2007, 07:43 PM // 19:43

It's not always a simple answer of the target got prot covered either, in many cases you'll need to switch targets dozens of times before there has been enough *pressure* applied to begin taking down targets easily.
Pressure is the key. Sometimes its just more effective to keep pouring it on until the entire defensive capacity of the opposing team is overwhelmed. This usually causes a chain reaction with the entire enemy team lying dead in a line from where the battle began to the near dead Guild lord.

Dr Strangelove · Apr 18, 2007, 07:57 PM // 19:57

I have to ask- If your healers in DAOC or WoW or dying in 15 seconds, why bother even bringing them? Wouldn't you be better off just bringing more damage and beating the crap out of them before they beat you down?

Try some RA matches, and, if you have factions, try AB and all the competetive missions. They're a great starter to PvP. Unfortunately, it can be very hard to get started in GvG and HA, as it generally requires all 3 campaigns and has a lot of elitism going around.

As far as you're concerned, staves are just as good as wands with foci. I'd just stick with the staves to make things easier.

Apr 18, 2007, 02:06 PM // 14:06	#29
Hell Raiser Forge Runner Join Date: Dec 2005 Guild: [PHNX] Profession: Mo/	The 55 monk example was perfect. He is not interested in builds anyway, nothing wrong with mentioning a build that uses protection to be able to dance around when the enemy is trained on him. It doesn't matter if it is PvP or PvE, it doesn't matter if you have 55hp or 500-600hp. What does matters is that, in GW, it is extremely easy to stop a train in it's tracks with a very small amount of effort. Last edited by Hell Raiser; Apr 18, 2007 at 02:09 PM // 14:09..

Apr 18, 2007, 03:04 PM // 15:04	#34
sabutai Academy Page Join Date: Apr 2007 Profession: W/	lol hellraiser, i'm not even in a guild, but i am too nervous to do any pvp, let alone gvg etc being a good daoc player i could easily transition to WoW and pwn faces, as they were fairly similar...just less macro use as kuldebar mentioned, this is so weirdly different to me, i am loathe to look horribly newbish and embarrass myself Last edited by sabutai; Apr 18, 2007 at 03:09 PM // 15:09..

Apr 18, 2007, 03:34 PM // 15:34	#36
sabutai Academy Page Join Date: Apr 2007 Profession: W/	lol yeah i usually played my shaman most recently in daoc, i died pretty much every single fight always within the first 10 to 15 seconds if we got jumped...even if we won the team armsman or whatever was fotm always managed to floor me...resulting in the tedious rebuffing of everyone kiting, shearing, rooting, interrupting and death...the joy also, but sorry to ask here...where can i learn new skills for my heroes? and i keep getting off hand items that add energy etc...but i can only find 2 handed weapos, thus making all these off hands i find useless///where is the 1 handed weapons for mages/priest etc? Last edited by sabutai; Apr 18, 2007 at 03:46 PM // 15:46..

Apr 18, 2007, 06:25 PM // 18:25	#37
Yichi Furnace Stoker Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Guild Hall, Vent, Guesting, PvE, or the occasional HA match... Guild: Dark Alley [dR]	any skills that you have unlocked on your account whether from buying them from skill trader, earning them from a quest, or unlocking them using balthasar faction will be available to your hero's. Last edited by Yichi; Apr 18, 2007 at 06:27 PM // 18:27..

Apr 17, 2007, 11:21 PM // 23:21	#21
Mesmer in Need Forge Runner Join Date: Mar 2006 Guild: [ToA]	If you try to take out a monk firs thing, it wont work most of the time. Warriors need adren to even start their chain of attacks first off. Usually at the beginningm of battle monks have no dp and full energy. Plus it takes a good amount of damage to take down a monk with its self healing, healing from another monk, and sometimes some support. Protection prayrs can negate alot of the damage also, making it hard to kill a monk unless under constant pressure. This pressure has to usually come from a large portion of your team, while the other team goes and murders your monks. The key to gvg is keeping pressure spread out evenly among the apposing party, and finnaly come in for the kill when the monks are weakend, with less energy and usually trying to heal a teammate.

Apr 17, 2007, 11:26 PM // 23:26	#22
AOD Enjoy Gravity Pre-Searing Cadet Join Date: Mar 2007 Guild: Angels of Death (clanaod.net) Profession: R/E	The GW observer mode is a good tool to watch how others use their builds and stuff, but it's sometimes hard to tell what's going on. you can only see what one person is casting and there is no way to hear what is going on communication wise. I've listened to GvG battles on my guild's vent but had to wait to watch the match and try to remember what was said. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with observer mode the way it is, only that it doesn't give the whole picture at once. I've found that I like to follow one player to see what skills are being used, when and how they use them. In a long battle you can get a feel for both teams this way

Apr 18, 2007, 11:48 AM // 11:48	#23
sabutai Academy Page Join Date: Apr 2007 Profession: W/	yeah, i dont think i'm really learning anything about gw pvp in all these matches i'm observing...just seems like total chaos to me due to my ignorance of all the classes abilities, play styles and the general mechanics of the game i am leery of playing an auto twenty toon, as it might just compound my confusion and lead to me developing bad habits guess i'll just keep leveling my mesmer and warrior and wait till i get them some skills unlocked and learn to use them anyways, thanks for the replies

Apr 18, 2007, 01:25 PM // 13:25	#26
Loot Junkie Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: in a utopian dream Guild: clan dethryche[dth] Profession: N/	sabutai, I have a crazy little monk build which I use in random arenas that is near indestructible since hardly anybody brings interrupts or enchantment removals to that arena. So here's what happens: all the offense on the other team decides that they're gonna "get the monk", so they all wail away on me with everything they have and get absolutely nowhere since I am well protted up. Meanwhile, because they have all focused on me and not tried to shut down, hinder or damage anybody else, my team mates were basically free to do what they wanted which usually ends up as a victory for my team. The last thing you want to happen is for your team to expend all their efforts and energy on one target and get nowhere, this is usually FTL. When you observe some high end pvp action and all you see is "everybody doing their own thing", they are not. What they are doing is seeing who is gonna crack first, its called pressure and is a big part of the GW pvp experience. Pressure forces you to learn to run your build efficiently and choose the best skills to occupy those meager 8 spaces on your skillbar. This is what makes GW one of the best games if not *the best* when it comes to pvp content.

Apr 18, 2007, 01:43 PM // 13:43	#27
Loot Junkie Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: in a utopian dream Guild: clan dethryche[dth] Profession: N/	And as for Ted and his comments on 55 monking; Don't you think Ted, that since sabutai is new, and that he is *never* going to see a 55 monk when he watches pvp matches on observe mode, that you should refrain from adding to his confusion by even mentioning this farming build on this thread? In order for him to get your point he would have to learn all about the 55 monk build, and considering he is new that is a little much dont you think? Thomas is an experienced pvper as well as a regular poster on these threads and is simply trying to keep this particular thread free from any extraneous ideas that clutter up the central idea on this thread.

Apr 18, 2007, 02:14 PM // 14:14	#30
sabutai Academy Page Join Date: Apr 2007 Profession: W/	sorry to drag this off topic, but what is this 55 build? and secondly should i have my monk heroes bar mostly laden with prot spells? now that i know monks arent seconds away from being gangbanged in pvp i might try one...i was usually healers and shaman in daoc...i like that type of play ok, back on topic and you guys arguing amongst yourselves

Apr 18, 2007, 02:31 PM // 14:31	#31
Kuldebar Valiturus Desert Nomad Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Garden City, Idaho Guild: The Order of Relumination (TOoR) Profession: R/	Having played 3 years of DAoC and 2 years of WoW, I can understand the OP's line of questioning. I haven't done any serious PvPing in Guild Wars but I do run Observer mode quite frequently. DAoC PvP was the king of trained assists, you would assign a main assist in your group and he would focus all the DPS down on the poor target, often Healers, at least at first, generally if you had a good MA your team would be good. WoW had some of this approach but was often far less organized because trained attacks were usually unnecessary when all you needed to do was zerg first in order to win. Sweep all that off the table for Guild Wars. The skills are very refined and you can't kill or incapacitate whole groups of players at one time. The whole combat experience is balanced on a system of moves and counter moves causing a battle to see-saw back and forth, very much like Volley Ball when played well. When I bring up PvP to friends who I played DAoC or WoW with, I always mention that "you don't really get bulldozed in Guild Wars." What I mean, I explain, is that no matter how powerful the enemy, they generally can't mow through you as easily as in other games. Sure, you can get owned but you'll see it coming. In other games, you could literally be dead before you realized it. Or incapacitated by so many crowd control spells that you couldn't do anything while they killed you... Guild Wars has a very refined combat system. So, for me, I had to throw everything I ever thought I knew about PvP out the window, and I'm so shaken up about I still haven't PvPed <non-arena> in Guild Wars yet!

Apr 18, 2007, 07:36 PM // 19:36	#38
Sisyphean Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Mar 2007	Sabutai if you're nervous about PvPing, but still want to try it out, we should set up a time to do some Team Arenas - since we're both new to the game we can both look newbish. A buddy of mine just started playing too, we used to play WoW together. There are a few people on my friend's list I've done some TA with who expressed interest in doing so again, as well, so I'm sure we could get together a low pressure team to try stuff out with - and I've won enough games in TA with groups that moved up from RA that I'm pretty confident we could do decent. Send me a PM if you're interested some time - not necessarily now, but whenever.

Apr 18, 2007, 07:43 PM // 19:43	#39
lennymon Forge Runner Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Seattle Guild: Odin's Hammer [OH] - Servant's of Fortuna [SoF] Profession: R/	It's not always a simple answer of the target got prot covered either, in many cases you'll need to switch targets dozens of times before there has been enough pressure applied to begin taking down targets easily. Pressure is the key. Sometimes its just more effective to keep pouring it on until the entire defensive capacity of the opposing team is overwhelmed. This usually causes a chain reaction with the entire enemy team lying dead in a line from where the battle began to the near dead Guild lord.

Apr 18, 2007, 07:57 PM // 19:57	#40
Dr Strangelove Furnace Stoker Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Wasting away again in Margaritaville Guild: [HOTR]	I have to ask- If your healers in DAOC or WoW or dying in 15 seconds, why bother even bringing them? Wouldn't you be better off just bringing more damage and beating the crap out of them before they beat you down? Try some RA matches, and, if you have factions, try AB and all the competetive missions. They're a great starter to PvP. Unfortunately, it can be very hard to get started in GvG and HA, as it generally requires all 3 campaigns and has a lot of elitism going around. As far as you're concerned, staves are just as good as wands with foci. I'd just stick with the staves to make things easier.